When news that two of rap’s most eccentric and creative nutjobs (Ghostface & MF Doom) were holed-up in a studio together, working on music, the first thing that sprung to mind was that they’re either cooking-up some mind-blowing, classic shit, or are about to unleash some of the corniest crap ever laid down on two-inch reels. There won’t be any middle ground.
So far, things aren’t looking good at all. While Doom’s blend of “Mighty Healthy” gave us a glimpse of how just how good this tag-team could potentially be, “The Mask” (from the atrocious Danger Doom project) and “Charlie Brown” from the soon-to-be-released Fishscale, are exactly what I hoped this material wouldn’t sound like – self-consciously “funky” excursions into the zany side of hip-hop that seems to be so popular these days. I’m at the stage now where I’ve pretty much given up on the Metal Faced Villain putting-out any good new music (although “Rap Snitch Kanish” was great). Considering how much I bumped Black Bastards, Operation: Doomsday, “Impostas” and “I Hear Voices”, I never thought I’d get to this point, but Zev has over-exposed himself to the level where he almost makes 50 Cent seem restrained. It’s only a matter of time until the Victor Vaughn PS2 game hits the shelves.
MF Grimm seems to share this view, if his “Book of Daniel” is anything to go by. While I usually don’t support diss tracks from guys who used to run together, you can’t front on some of the cards getting pulled here. At the same time, it’s pretty easy to embaress someone you’ve known for a few years, but Grimm comes across as a serious dude, so don’t be too quick to group this track as another pre-Killa Season marketing scheme. Speaking of marketing, I have to tip my hat to Doom’s whole Special Herbs series, which has produced two different issues of ten volumes, with seperate CD and vinyl releases, which would have cost dedicated MF fans about $200 to cop the set. Now that’s what I call maximizing your profilt margin!
Ghostface Killah / Cam’Ron – Mighty Healthy / That’s Me [MF Doom Blend]
Danger Doom – The Mask
Ghostface Killah – Charlie Brown [snippet]
MF Grimm – Book of Daniel (via Ear Fuzz)
** UPDATE ** That “Angeles” track with Starks and Metal Face sharing mic duties is dope. There’s hope for this project yet…
Doom is getting pulled into the Dangermouse/Rhymesayers nexus of up-their-own-asses hip-hop.
The collab with Ghost and Madvillain 2 are pretty much it for him I’d say if he doesn’t knock em out of the park.
Also, that dis track is pretty much right on the ball from what I’ve heard. I’ve talked to industry folks and he has a real love of not paying people and then moving cities.
Doom was literally one of my favourite MC’s beacuse he did whatever he wanted creatively, and since no one can deny he’s a talented muthafucka, it’d come out pretty hot, if not interesting.
Now he’s TRYING to be weird and silly and it just ain’t working. Dangerdoom is the worst Doom album, and I can’t beleive that he pulled Kweli and T. Starks into that mess. Didn’t they listen to the album?
I will finish up this thought by saying I hope that FISHSCALE doesn’t suck, because that’d make me lose a little more hope for legit hip-hop. And also, I’d like to say that DANGERDOOM was more or less Dangermouse’s fault, because he really, really sucks ass.
We should start a collection and buy his ass some drums. Hey? Was that a snare? No? Wait…what about that! No…almost…was that a snare? No? Where’s the kicks? Hello? Drums? Where are you?
Doom may have suffered from over-exposure, but I think the hate on “Charlie Brown” is unjustified. Ghost comes with it on that track, largely bcause Doom gave him the sort of uptempo beat that showcases how ill his flow can be. Btw. it’s not like Doom always put drums on his beats in the past (Rhymes like Dimes) and although that Dangerdoom track was unlistenable, that’s not his fault. He didn’t make the beat.
Dangerdoom was atrocious. I felt Doom peaked right around King Gheedorah. After KG, it was obvious he was never going to give us a full album of Doomsday dopeness again. Every single album since Doomsday has been some kind of forced quirkyness or a few cool tracks and then a bunch of weed carrier throwaways.
If you took all the dope stuff from KG and Mmm…Food you’d have a fairly solid Doom album. But other than that, he’s been weak, weak, WEAK!
I love reading the interviews of Ghost and other Wu-Tang cats about Doom. They had no idea who he was–in that Mass Appeal article Starks basically admits he didn’t know who he was at first. It’s like someone told him Doom as cool and he better do a collabo to keep indie status going since his major label attempts at going platnium never worked out.
Oh, I’ll give props on Madvillany though–that was dope. Almost all the way through. But the tracks were to short.
There is hope!
I think that Charlie Brown track is hot.
I agree though it’s time for another GOOD Doom lp though.
I really dig this Charlie Brown track. I always look forward to new stuff from Ghost, who usually is on point with his shit. And DOOM is supposed to have like 4 or 5 beats on Fishscale. To me, DOOM can’t make a bad beat. Even shit he basically just loops, like his beat Mandrake, which is just the intro for the Doobie Brothers’ “What a Fool Believes” with some kick drums over it, I could listen to all day. Oh well, just my opinion.
I also loved/love “operation doomsday” but the last track he rhymed on that i felt was “mic line” off the M.I.C album and that was, what, 4 years ago ? He’s terrible now.
I haven’t really been feelin’ much new Ghostface either. That said, i quite like “charlie brown”. Well, it’s better than the other joints that’ve leaked from “fish scale” so far..which isn’t saying much but you takes what you can get.
Oh my God. Someone has the balls to say most of this MF DOOM stuff is bullshit & hype. Wow, can we get back to real hip-hop, not this big bird bullshit.
WHOA! How come nobody told me Grimm and Doom were beefing? WTF?
Ghost’s rapping is never weak, it’s the music I’m worried about. Since that “Charlie Brown” shit is just a snippet, I’ll reserve full judgement until the album comes out.
Hey, at least they didn’t loop the fuckin’ music from Peanuts!
Fishscale got pushed back again.
http://escobartheory.blogspot.com/
Wow, I didn’t know they were beefing…
What I think is the problem is that Doom has overexposed himself and become too prolific at the expense of quality . The ‘Man behind the mask’ bit is all good, but the idea of a faceless producer isn’t exactly new, and if you’re then going to pimp your image as hard as he has, it can start to look gimmicky as fuck.
He’s a dope producer and clever as hell. But most of his output recently seems to rely upon the idea of Doom as an eccentric genius, rather than actually making anything as enjoyable as Operation Doomsday, or as heartfelt as the Grimm track you got up there.
Wow. Some people are wylin. That Charlie Brown track is dope. I mean, it’s not the greatest song I’ve ever heard or anything, but it’s still good. Same with The Mask.
For the most part, this site is dead on point though. Keep up the good work.
alright, first, I can’t agree that MF Doom is a corny rapper, cause hes got everyone else in the game beat, second, i thought king geedorah was a terrible album aside from the track with m. sayyid who basically outshined him on the track, Dangerdoom was some forced hype though f’sho, and lets make it known that the gimmicky mask shit is working cause hes getting so much recognition, i mean lets face it the point of being a pro b-boy is to sell records, not stay true to your original fans or try to be as broke and gulley as you can be to keep it real, Grimm’s track had a touch of truth to it though because Doom did forget about all his peeps back on M.I.C. who made my nod my head from the get go, so hes gotta give props to his real homies who were always there before he got indie fame, I have the feeling the collabo with GFK is gonna be dope by the sounds of the charlie brown track, and with that said i guess we’ll just have to see the fate which unfolds for Doom, and which of y’all will get to eat your words, peace.
You have to be kidding me? GFK is THE title holder of this entire rap game. Get your mind right. That Charlie Brown is ill and I can’t wait to hear Fishscale.
Doom vs. Grimm is dissapointing, I like both their shit but Grimm gets his ass handed to him when comparing originality, clever rhymes, and production. Dangerdoom was gimmiky and had almost ZERO replay value, but you gotta give props to Doom for bringing himself from total obscurity to being so recognized that comedy central wants him to do shit for their cartoons within 3 years.
Much respect for this site you always come with the good word in the game but I really have to disagree with your stance on two of hip-hops illest and most consistantly dope MCs.
fuck all this DOOM hating he is clearly more creative than most rappers alive. listen to madvillain and say he can’t spit listen to vaudeville villain and say he ain’t experimental and then listen to 50 and do an honest comparison. this guy isn’t wack.
Judging by some of these comments, a lot of you just skimmed the article and assumed I said Ghost and Doom are trash.
What I actually said is that both of them can be incredible when they’re on their “A” game. Supreme Clientele and Operation: Doomsday are both masterpieces…I just hope they can maintain that standard in the future.
i hope fishscale is better than i think it’s going to be…then again i shouldn’t have to float all my hopes on one album but it seems there ain’t too much else i care about anymore…
i would like to see mf’s style on what a niggy know rmx come back- where he first created the DOOM character in my opinion. he’s been as clever as i think he will ever be, he should go back and add a little more spontaneous rhyme combustion.
“niggas is froze like mannequins so no shenanigans/bucko/i’m rugged like stoneface or stucco…”
he almost at this status…
“niggas be blowin but be annoying like whistle rockets(whoooooooo)”
compared to the mainstream mass of rappers..Doom is a maverick in himself….i really doubt dangerdoom was a gimmick sense in reality i dont think anyone watches Adult swim past family ( well i do ..and its some funny shit ) Yes a couple of tracks were off …( as on any album) and some were extremly visionary …but come on …doom never fails when it comes to just making lyrical puzzles and advancing the art form …for though some of yall make it seem like hes really about to go commercial within in the next couple of years..i doubt it …and i doubt all of yall actually listen to the whole albums all the way through ..ya sound like people who didnt like the further adventures of lord quas …quit snearin andf listen u might miss something ….RIP ..J DIlla
Dangerdoom was cool. Cartoons are stupid so of course the album wasn’t completely dope, but as an instrumental album the shit was hot to me, and no matter how flaky Dangermouse gets, as long as his beats are banging, which last I checked, they were, he’s aight with me. On to P-Tone…. Ghost has Doom, Pete Rock, RZA, Madlib and uh…. DILLA on the joint. Ghost can still rhyme, so… how’s it gonna come wack? I think the album you should be questioning is Only Built 4 Cuban Linx II, which from the cuts I’ve assembled here & there, makes the shit sound mediocre. So far everything on Fishscale makes it sound like a winner.
As far as DOOM the rapper, no comment. He’s aight with me, not spectacular, not wack at all.
I thought DangerDoom was the most over-rated album ever, but The Mask is fucking dope. I can’t front on it AT ALL, Ghost’s verse on it is fucking killer. I love the imagery of it and everything.
I don’t know why you only want Ghost to rap about street shit, I’m happy that he can not only switch up his styles but also his content once in a while. You must have hated Deltron.
If half the Doom/Ghost album is like that and the other half is raw raps than I will love it.
On a diff note, I hope the album cover for Fishscale where he has the huge knife doesn’t get changed to that boring one. It’s too awesome of a cover.
This Book of Daniel song is a lot of nonsense. Percy needs a hug bad. Megalon sounds like a dime store Diplomat on this track too.
“Come home Zev, I need a hug”. Perfect valentine from a long lost lover to his man who has moved on in the game.
Grimm is basically saying ” i was about to do 15 to life and you had my back” and now I hate you for leaving me.
And how can you tell someone they got no class while you’re showing that you got none yourself?
Boring.
man tru that book of daniel song was just dirty laundry like a sally jessier raphale or maury show …the dude couldnt even get coherent breath control throughout the song…sounded like he got kicked in the sternum …when battling someone who is ur boy and is also a better talent at his work ( doom’s delivery in most of his songs is almost awe strikingly good ) u should really calculate every line …yea i know grimm was shot ..hes mad ..hes emotional …but at least he could have calculated every line to get as much power into the diss…grimms line is horrible …i cant wait to see the ensuing doom diss ..if he makes one …i just hope he does the beat himself and leaves madlib fourtet and koushick away from the boards ..it would be sick to see a fully produced doom diss track …i wonder what he will do
Never been a fan of Grimm. The diss track is weak–as most are. Whining about stuff only they know about. Who cares? Waaa! I would hope Doom doesn’t bother to respond…or maybe in a subtle Deep Fried Freinz kind of way.
I liked KMD. “Mr. Hood” is one of my favorite albums of all-times. That being said Doom is…ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ..oh, sorry, sleep inducing.
Yeah Danger Doom was W.E.A.K. doom needs to get back to making his own beats although the Madlib collabo was dope and I liked alot of the Viktor Vaughn tracks too. I think that the DOOM / GRIMM beef started around the time the Monsta Island Czars lp dropped which is a fuckin shame because that lp was so raw and real and I woulda loved to hear more M.I.C. lps with that mix of mcs.
B.T.W. – this site is why I don’t even bother with hip hop mags anymore… no one can touch yr shit for knowledge & entertainment value
Why is it that people who read hip hop blogs feel like their opinion holds any weight in the outcome of future hip hop releases? Just read over the list of comments displayed on this topic. It is nothing but a bunch of sniveling ex-back packers feebly offering up criticsims and even worse suggestions on what the artists in questions should do or not do.
The differnece between you and them is quite simple: they are artists and you are “critics” at best. Because you have nothing to contribute to hip hop you attempt to voice your pathetic observations as if your criticisms grouped together in one mass will have an efffect on the outcome of future releases.
Those who can do, do. Those who can’t critique. If you ideas and or opinions were indeed worthwhile then your voice would actually be heard on a mainstream level as opposed to being confined to a 2 x 2 inch box on the screen of your computer.
I think the strength of Doom is that he isn’t self conciously trying to emulate popular fashions. Almost everything in mainstream hiphop is gimmick oriented, mostly in terms of publicity oriented “beefs”. Who gives a fuck if he wears a mask and has some cartoon samples on his albums? He has an original flow, original production style and clever lyrics. How many mainstream or underground artists can you say that about.
That was the longest and most elaborate “Oh yeah, well where’s your record?” defense I’ve ever read.
Hey loved the article, particularly the line “Zev has over-exposed himself to the point where he almost makes 50 Cent seem restrained. It’s only a matter of time until the Victor Vaughn PS2 game hits the shelves.” My view of Doom is that his music is best when ingested in small amounts, unfortunately his prolific output makes that pretty difficult. I’ll hold out on any opinion regarding any collabos till I hear the whole song and/or album.
I was just reading a write up on the Fishscale listening party and dude said it was sick. And supposedly the Doom tracks are fire other than Charlie Brown.
The Fishscale stuff I’ve heard so far isn’t so bad. It’s at least on par with Pretty Toney Album’s better tracks. PTA was kind of average, but not a disaster. I’ll pick up Fishscale, no doubt.
Am I the only one who thinks Madvillainy beats Operation Doomsday as an album. Madvillainy and the first Viktor Vaughn album were straight up genius.
DangerDoom seems to be fashionable to hate even though it’s a pretty decent album. People seem to like hating on it becuse Dangermouse gets too much love from the indie crowd.
Ghostface is just straight up genius imo. He’s been killing everything since Supreme Clientele.
Ghost used some DOOM beats that had already been used before for Fishscale. The beats from Megalon’s Rain Blood, M.I.C.’s 1,2…1,2, and Li’l Sci’s Indy 102 were all used on Fishscale.
“Skip One” = “Ant One” from Soundcircuit?
Don’t worry if it don’t make sense to you.
Doom is definitely getting over-exposed, stretching himself thin. Different people are going to have different opinions of when it started but for me the enjoyment level really dropped off with his releases after the first Viktor Vaughn album. Too many of his rhymes (and tracks) seem like filler. From what I’ve seen, people who don’t know the Zev/Doom history either think he’s booooring or The Greatest. To me, that don’t feel right.
When the word of that Doom/Ghost came out, I remember being so hyped. I guess that saying about “if it seems too good to be true…” is for reals.
you haters make me sick fuck critics, ghost is the champ and doom is the most ridiculous up and commer in the game so creative. this review also made me sick. fishscale is crazy fire
Yeah, I agree with all you people. Hip-hop should be about GUNS and NIGGAS and real things, KNOWHATIMSAYIN?!?! and take itself REAL SERIOUSLY and not be irreverent or none of that playful stuff Doom is doing. I don’t want to see no motherfucking WHITE GUYS with GLASSES at no rap show smiling and enjoying Doom’s clever wordplay, KNOWHATIMSAYIN?!?!?!.
I love the Fishscale album! Fuck bulletproof- R&B Bullshit. This shits is street. As far a Doom production on the tracks! I thought they were a bit reserved. I expected a lot more. I think the wu track was really good though. I hope to see the Wu collab with Doom more. But next time on the lyrics then the beats. As far as Doom V.V. album was really good. King G was wack as fuck. Madvilliany one of the best albums every. If doom makes it mainstream I think he will lose what he has gained in the indie world. As far as the commit above mine. Its too late White people have been in rap from day one. White people buy albums to. I’m black by the way. I don’t like it either but I rather have a white person at a Doom show then a Lil Wayne show. Rap is a joke now anyway. Everybody and their mom are doing it. Black Rappers a worse then Vanilla Ice. They exploit the game. Read a book poem before you decide to rap! Peace strangethingsmoss
damn, you are some racist motherf*ckers! listen to what Ghost says when he announces “All I Got…” live, it doesn’t matter, black, white, whatever, all races go thru hard times. i grew up white in a Cleveland ghetto and i’m not sorry for listening to “your music”, you elitist pricks.
Doom is fuckin’ dope.Assholes. Fuckfaces. I’ve sat here and read people saying shit like Danger Doom is wack? First of all, adult swim is the get high show, the fuckin ultimate. Creativity levels off the chain. Furthermo’, if you can’t grasp that or understand the importance of imagination in emceeing than I understand because your in a coma of sorts – hence the sleeping. Yeah, some people don’t like cartoons no more – but how wack is that? How priceless is the work of a one of a kind emcee? Especially these days? Think it through. This niggas lyrics are genius. Point blank. Learn about poetry. Repent, darknesses. 4-real. Food wuz dope, MadVillain was x-tra dope, VV is crazy, Special Herbs are just that, DangerDoom is a fuckin’ classic. Of course Doomday was dope. You get shit for points for pointing that out. These niggas talking shit about Doom prolly listen to Tony Yayo on the gay-lo. Rockin to Rick Ross an’ shit. ‘FUCK ATTA HEA!
Yo, MF Grimm can not rap. The Book Of Daniel Grimm flow is horrible. My sister can spit better than that. Doom’s probably relaezing why there was creative difference. MIC fell off, get over it and try to make a better album, I doubt it!!!!! This is a case of a bunch of niggas mad cuz they ain’t make dope shit!! The Man And The Mask wasn’t on point but Doom’s track record surpasses and knocks Grimm off the map. Stop crying, Grimm and just get urs, HOMIE! Stopping airing ur business, weakness and flaws to the world silly fool.
Oh my, guys I’m sorry. Doom is not the best thing in the world since “sliced Mcee’s”. I don’t know of too many rappers that are the best. I think Doom will have to put a little more effort into his thoughts. There is somethings about the first line on the MADVILLAINY album “Living off borrowed time the clock ticks fast”. I would like to hear more stuff like that. I think he needs to stop bring out albums every 4 months. Come on the Special Herbs albums is the biggest hustle I have seen. I don’t mind one or two in the since of a collection of beats. But not everything he does. I think he should work with more a list production to mix it up a little. I hate to say it but he will need to work with Automator. To set a new standard for his career. The DangerDoom is not confident at all, it not personal enough. But once again he is rapping about “get high cartoons”. I think there are better subject to talk about. I still see people living on the streets and cop harassment everyday.
well, I dont remember MF Doom being too serious of a rapper, but I did like his beats, I figure he would super sample and create his own beats. If he keeps sampling other people’s beats am gonna puke. It’s cool sometimes, but I want original MF goodness. Fishscale ended up being a sample album similar to some of MF Doom’s latest stuff. I guess he wasn’t lying when he said mad villany…
that isn’t to say I don’t like Doom, I still think he’s better than most of the shyt thats out right now. I just hope he can raise the bar again, I just have high hopes for him, he’s really talented.
Obviously we are repeting ourselves here, but the older doom albumns that have been mentioned had a real mystique the way you often had to listen to his lines a bunch of times before they clicked. And VV had a real atmosphere to it, and dangermouse killed it for me. Its just shithouse, i just dont think you can go back to been so ruggid after a gay albumn like that. That said you got to factor in apparently his quit weed, his kids are in private schools not living in NY etc….He cant keep acting like a broke hungry raw MC. got to go somewhere, change i guess.
I’ve never heard a Mf Doom album until I got Dangerdoom yesterday from my library. lol
All I have to say is, what? This guy has some of the worst lyrics I’ve ever heard. I’ve actually read the book of lyrics that came with it. There are about 2 songs lyrics that stood out my mind: Basketcase and Space Ho’s. The rest is a bunch of verses saying absolutely nothing. I think the guy disguises his lack of depth in lyrics by trying to seem cool with eccentric styles.
I may give him a pass because it was a concept album, but I’m going to have to check out the rest of his work. So far I’m not impressed at all. His delivery puts me to sleep.
To the kids complaining about white folks in rap…we invented basketball and don’t mind others playing. Anyway…I was a little disappointed with Fishscale. The Doom stuff was not all that hot. Best track is Shakey Dog.
Dangerdoom did suck, but MM Food wasn’t bad at all. I mean, yeah, if you throw out the skits it’s more like an ep, but everything on it is pretty impeccable. His beats on Fishscale were weak… Alex (stolen script), however, is amazing.
True, MM Food has a some good shit on it.
Actually DangerDoom was on eof my favorite albums for 05′ one needs to keep in mind MF Doom and Dangernouse never worked together on an album or a track prior it was a random pairing and quite frankly it wasn’t bad for a first outing. Fishcale was a solid album lyrically and still is one of his best but I like the Doom Tracks from More Fish a lot better. Doom is one of the illest rappers to pick up a mike because he breaks convention. O and one more thing if u think King Gheedorah was a good album u must be smoking the Monsta Island Czars outside of Jet Jaguar (Grimm) and maybe Rodan are ass lyrically. Not even some of Dooms illest beats could save those guys.
Dam you fools hate too much. why everyone gotta be a critic. if your taking sides, your missing out on some good music period. who cares if they have beef?? your like a bunch of little sissy girls gossipping over some cat fight. Doom changes his style all the time (King Geedorah, viktor vaughn, DJ REls…) ya yall prolly forgot about DJ Rels break beat sh*t. you think its easy to make 4 or 5 different styles of music, one for each alias? yall say sh*t Doom came out with two years ago was ill but now he is wack…this guy’s been out since early 90’s or so with OperationDoomsday. You fools go back to listenin to Chamillionaire or JayZ and leave the real hip hop heads alone fuckers.
Operation doomsday came out in like 98 or 99
DJ Rels is Madlib, not DOOM.
Basically, MF Doom is awesome. By the way, Doom WAS out in early 90’s under the zev-love x alias. I mean half of you critics cant even get basic facts about this guy right. Ok so doom and ghostface will probably be a disaster, but if you listen to KMD, Monsta Island Czars, Viktor Vaughn, Metalfingers, Madvilliany youll know jus how unstoppable this guy is both on the mic and behind the keyboard. Believe me, this is not any mainstream shit, only dangerdoom was actually actually incredibly noticed above ground. Before you all judge him, listen to him.
Whoever dissed Grimm for not controlling his breath properly – try rapping when you’re in a wheelchair.
I doubt Grimm cares if you like that track, I think he wrote it for Doom.
I have to say that while I haven’t heard Dangerdoom, I’ve loved every other Doom album (except Viktor Vaughn 2 but Doom had nothing to do with it, they used his leftover verses).
MAdvillainy & Vaudeville Villain are right up there with Mr.Hood, Black Bastards & Operation Doomsday in my opinion.
To the guy shouting Shakey Dog – good to hear it. It’s produced by the UK’s own Lewis Parker. He’s been around on the UK scene for a while and made the choice to go over to the US and start again from scratch. Looks like it’s paying off.
How the fuck can anyone dismiss Grimm as a silly fool?
The man got shot 9 times, paralysed from the neck down, left blind and deaf and sentenced to life imprisonment. He fought back to regain his sight and hearing and the use of his upper body. He fought his sentence from inside and got out after a few years. Since he has started his own label (who have just produced their first film) and has just released a triple cd that is one of the most soulful and deep albums I have ever heard.
What have you done in that time? Smoked weed, jacked off and watched the tv?
Book Of Daniel is clearly a track from a man who doesn’t wanna hate, just wants to know what happened to his friend.
Ha ha, people even dissin Madlib! Get the fuck out of here!
Some proper fuckin dicks on this board.