Hip-Hop Music Was Perfected in 1986

Posted on by Robbie Ettelson

For the proof, listen to this…

I’ll get into this in more detail soon, but here’s a few reasons why 1986 was better than ’88 and ’94:

1. Just-Ice and Mantronik created “Cold Gettin’ Dumb”, which is without a doubt one of the greatest songs ever created in the history of modern music.

2. You had the option of doing either the Pee Wee Herman, The Wop, The Fila or The Rooftop when your favorite jam came on.

3. The drums on every song were capable of shattering car windows.

4. Less records were being released every week, therefore there was less wack shit out there.

5. Ultramagnetic MC’s unleashed “Ego Trippin'” on the world.

For the five of you who don’t read any other hip-hop blogs, here’s some essential viewing from Unkut Dot Com fam Dallas Penn and Oh Word, as Rafi and DP take us on a tour of NY’s bodega’s. Next stop – Comedy Central.

The authors of Bling: The Hip-Hop Jewellery Book show all wanna-be big-shots how to make their own diamonds:

141 thoughts on “Hip-Hop Music Was Perfected in 1986”

  2. Hmm! Don’t know … 88′ was on some Godfather 2 shit for sure. Those sophmore albums put out by BDP, P.E., STET, Ice T, Steady B, and Rakim were awesome … and that was the year Ultra dropped Critical Beatdown and EPMD dropped Strictly Business, and that Run DMC album was pretty heavy too. Damn! I really think 88′ was an awesome year for hip hop. Oh, and 88′ was the year Hijack dropped Hold No Hostage b/w Doomsday of Rap. 86′ was good but I feel 88 was the better year!!!

  3. Hmmm… ’86? I don’t know, brock brings up some good points. Although I will admit that ’88 tends to be memorialized a bit more, if only because compared to the years that bracketed it, ’87 was a pretty uneventful year for hip hop.

  4. Also, nearly forgot to mention Daddy Kane and G Rap who both dropped their debut albums which feat some of the rawest, hardcore hip hop made to date! See: G Rap Vs. Kane for more details.

  5. But, yes, Cold Gettin’ Dumb is a definite GOAT! Anyone know why Just Ice dissed Kurtis Blow and LL Cool J on that joint. I’m guessing that the LL diss was because LL rocked T La Rock’s style, and the two were friends. But, as for Kurtis Blow, I have no idea.

  6. hell yeah! cold gettin dumb is a monster of a track, they really dont make bangers like that any more.

  7. Naaa Im goin with lil old 87. 87 was the illest out of all the 80’s years for hip hop simply because of the singles. no particular order.
    1. Do The James
    2. Make it Funky/Top Billin
    3.It’s My Thing
    4.(what may be the best hip hop single of allllllll time)Holy War.

  8. I liked it how the diamonds came out already cut. That’s dome scientifical madness right there.

  9. I’m gonna have to go with the others and emphasize 88’s superiority over ’86. Even ’89 . . .

    ’86 was just marking what was about to finally blossom.

  10. BTW, I was planning to get some work done but I’m gonna spend a couple hours listening to everything on the Bustthefacts blog now . . .

    The Revolution tape is dope so far.

  11. This would depend on your age when you first got into hip hop.For me 1986 has some of my most memorable hip hop experiences. First and foremost, UK FRESH 86 Wembley Arena . A near religious one. Those of you reading this old enough to have gone will agree. A first time event i beleive and an amazing showcase of US rap stars-you name em they were there. Bambaataa-lovebug starsky-sir mix a lot-steady b-word of mouth-captain rock. Run Dmc dropped Raising Hell=classic. Cats were rockin fat-laces and kangols in UK. Groove Records Greek St. was the mecca for hip hop wax in 86..uumm oh yeah and Jewel T fuckd alot of heads up with the Beleive It Or Not single.

  12. Yeah! 87′ was a great year for singles but 88′ was a great year for albums. Ultra dropped a couple of bangers that year, and then we had ‘Rebel’, which I’m positive dropped that year. However, BDP dropped Criminal Minded in 87′. 87′ was also the year Scott La Rock died, right? I remember that being the first time I got kinda emotional about someone I respected dying. Thinking back on it, I think Scott La Rock dying got me connected to Hip Hop on a more emotional level. So, 87′ was kinda important to me for that reason. RIP Scott La Rock.

  15. Best Hip-Hop single? I don’t think I could settle on one. I used to make little top 10 lists but they always change a week or two later.

    BTW, you guys gotta check out the 1979 12″ blog on Bust the Facts, specifically that David Lampell record “I Ran Iran” which precedes “The Message” as first ‘political’ Hip-Hop song. This is the first time I heard it.

  16. How come no one is really mentioning the dudes who cooked diamonds in their microwave?

  17. I used to think i was old on this bitch. 86?!?? nah. At that point hip hop to me was pretty uninteresting. 88 had classic songs(The Symphony!!!), classic albums(Long Live the Kane, It takes a Nation of Millions, The Great Adventures of Slick Rick!!). 88 is to me when hip hop really started heating up. Before 88 hip hop was just music playing in the background at the rec center. There was a song here and there that i was feeling, but it wasn’t until 88 that it started becomming an obsession for me.

  19. @ mercilesz: you’re right – holy war is the shit.
    i can still remember that night i heard it first.
    on john peels music. before westwood
    got on air (in germany). it blew me away.
    i’m hooked on this track till today. still
    searchin for ibu’s peacemaker. those were
    my days. 87/88.

  20. 86-87-88 were the Hip Hop Wonder Years … everything seemed so new and vital … I remember when Scott died and seeing KRS at MSG a week later … that was the same show PE did ‘rebel’ and did NOT go down too well … things changed for PE soon after !

  21. @ Iain: as I remember, England were kinda hip to P.E. before America was. Americans weren’t feeling PE that much at first. I guess that’s why highlights of their show at Brixton Academy were on that second album. I’m reasoning it was a kind of thank you for the overwhelming love PE received when they came to the UK!!!!

  22. Interesting, the ‘Holy Wars’ mention, as I was just going to hit Robbie up and inquire as to where in the hell Sir I-Bu is nowadays? Well, Robbie any info?

  23. ’86 was a test run for ’88. Case in point–Just Ice’s 2nd album!!!! Going Way Back! Freedom of Speech! A short album, but I dig it.

  24. brock- PE the highlights were from the hammersmith show in 1987. I should know, i was there.

  25. 87 was great, but there were more jams out there than just Holy War im tellin you…kings of pressure ‘you know how to reach us’ gotta be in my top ten alltimers.

  26. I don’t know what Ibu is doing now, but his crew where a huge influence on Kane in the early days.

  27. Notice how kane shouts out Melquan and Shabazz amongst others at the end of Set It Off. im sure melquan was producer for Divine Force?

  28. Where do I start!

    First, Ibu and Divine Force; if anybody has a copy of that freestyle session on Marley Marl In Control when Sir Ibu and Kane went back to back POST THAT SHIT NOW!… because I know they’ll never digitally remaster it. I still have the Holy War single with ‘Something Different’ on it. Also, don’t sleep on ‘I get Lyrical’ and ‘The Peacemaker’, also by Divine Force featuring Sir Ibu (they also did ‘My Uptown Beat’).

    As far as 86′, I’m feelin’ Robbie on this one; in fact, I’m eccentric so I’d go one more and say 85′! ‘Cold Gettin Dumb’?, what about ‘PUT THAT RECORD BACK ON’. What’s up with a Just-Ice Post?!

    Back then you were an outcast if you were a hip hopper. That was before a bunch of johnny come latelys jumped on the FUCKIN’ BANDWAGON and turned this shit into modern day MTV.

    You used to get ridiculed for your music and your culture; your style of speach, dress, your grafitti. Now some of the same people who used to ridicule you when you were living the origins of this culture, jump on the internet and claim to be some kind of Hip Hop expert.

    88′ is easy to love and from 88′ – 90′ a swarm of dick riders came along and fucked hip hop up!

    You can always tell who really knows what’s up by their knowledge of hip hop BEFORE its golden era.

  29. @ Sterling: Damn! That was the Palais? I could’ve sworn it was Brixton Academy. Haven’t listened to the album in ages. I remember they ran the concert on Behind The Beat. Remember Behind The Beat?

  30. brock- yeah man, that was at the Palais for cpl of nights. I think they used the 1st night for thne PE album. That was crazy evenin in london…B-Boys n crews everywhere and old Bill surrounding the site.Cats got their concert memorabilia n garments robbed on the tube on the way home.
    Yes. I still got some of those Behind the beat on video somewhere.History there dude.

    Ausar-How can u say 88-90 a swarm of dick-riders came along and fucked hip hop up?? what do u mean?.I concur how 85 is kinda under appreciated though.

  31. Sterling,

    Don’t get me wrong; 88′ – 90′ was classic, but as Hip Hop became more diverse and popular it became increasingly difficult to tell who was on the level as far as our culture.

    Sure, the music was better, which caused more people to like it, but a lot of these “fans” never actually embraced Hip Hop culture, only their interpretation of it’s music.

    Thus, the “Golden Era” had the inevitable consequence of popularising our music, while laying the groundwork to eventually dilute our culture; which is precisely what happened throughout the course of the 90’s.

    Don’t forget what happened right after the so called “Golden Era”, we proceeded to get bombarded with Hammer, Vanilla Ice, Rico Suave, Sir Mixalot, and all that other bullshit!

    Then by the mid 90’s they figured out how to mix the pop version from the early 90’s with the street credibility and skills from the late 80’s; and look who perfected it, Dr. Dre, the same guy who gave you NWA and JJ Fad in the same breath.

    So by the time 2000 came around Hip Hop became pop; and now its just pop, there might as well not be anything called Hip Hip anymore because there’s very little culture to back it up. So now “Hip Hop is Dead” according to some.

    Give me 85′ anyday, everybody knew where they stood.

    Ausar

  32. @ Ausar: I think the problem you mention began in 86 with the success of the Beasties and Run DMC, and then a little later with LL in 1987. But, yes the problem definitely evolved into the mutant it is today over the course of the 90s.

  33. Sleepy. But . . .

    This has happened with everything over the years. You name it. Ideology, governments, cultures, religion, music, whatever — when there’s no quality control, and people forget the base of what they stand for, everything is a free for all and anything goes.

    Sadly, the only thing that usually makes it better is complete destruction, and even that’s in rare cases. I guess what I’m really saying is that Hip-Hop needs a Saddam Hussein. No really. It needs a dictator to step up and say, “Hey, if I hear one more record like that, we’re going to rip your balls off.” I’m ready to nominate Freddy Fox for this position.

  35. nah. i dont agree. sure back in the days everything that
    glittered was gold. n every track was hot. but still
    nowadays theres an amount of ruffness in rap.
    and tracks worth to dig ( robbie proves it ).
    graffiti n b boying is still rockin too (at least here in
    germany). so HIP HOP IS NOT DEAD. but sick…

  36. swordfish, Hip Hop is very sick. I’ll be in Germany next month so I hope to get a sense of what you’re referring to. Let me know if there’s any spots I need to check out or any cities in particlar that your comments apply to.

    Brock, I think I see your point about the Beastie Boys and Run DMC, but what I’m referring to is the Ying and the Yang. The “Golden Era” immediately followed the Beasties and Run DMC. Then just when we reached an apex and developed one of the rawest most cutting edge art forms ever, a tidle wave of bullshit ensued because a bunch of money hungry corporations saw our potential and jumped on the badnwagon. That didn’t happen until after the “Golden Era”. During the “Golden Era” Hip Hop was still largely in the hands of independent record companies (Wild Pitch, Sleeping Bag, Idlers, First Priority, Tommy Boy, Select …this list goes on…).

    If anything, Run DMC was the foundation for the Golden Era.

  37. I don’t see Run-DmC as the start of any era. they were just continuing bronx tradition in my eyes. The rhymes they kicked were not as complex as alot of the treacherous 3 , Fantastic 5, Cold crush, Funky four plus one more. The 70’s is the start of the gold era of rap. 95 is the end.

  38. You don’t like “It’s Like That” / “Sucker MCs” was a new sound? You don’t think the way they dressed was different?

  39. They didn’t do the beat though. thats orange krush and davey d. they rap. If you listen to how they rap and what they say their rhyme scheme sounds like a 5 yr old compared to cold crush, treacherous 3, funky 4 plus 1 more, fantastic 5, etc…..And the way they dressed was how people used to dress in queens.They didn’t innovate any new clothing style they just didn’t dress in costumes like the older rappers from the bronx did on stage. jeans and sneakers had been the dresscode in new york since the 70’s.watch wild style or style wars.And I think you are confusing image with lyrics.You can’t see how people dress when you listen to a record. Matter of fact graffiti rock is on youtube. watch run-dmc get served by kool moe dee and maybe you will understand what i’m saying. If anything Run-Dmc dumbed down rap for the masses.

  42. MERCILESZ,

    I don’t disagree with you about their rhymes, but you go ask the average person who Orange Krush or Davy D is and they woudn’t have a clue. They know who Run DMC is though.

    I don’t think you can seperate the 2 in the publics eyes; the producer is part of the act.

    I like(d) Run DMC, but what really set them apart was when they came with the straight drum on Sucker MC’s. They then set themselves apart again when they came with the rock guitar on Rock Box. Then they set themselves apart again when they came with the samples on Peter Piper, followed by Beats To The Ryhme. They were innovators, production wise and I’ve never heard two mc’s rhyme back to back tighter.

    However, Run DMC was never on the level of the Trecherous Three; there’s no comparison, but honestly, not too many people know who the Trechorous Three are these days either.

    Run DMC were the foundation for the “Golden Era” in the sense that they set a new direction culturally. Hip Hop artists no longer had to dress up and act like the Bar Kays just to fit in with the Funk/Disco crowd. They could express themselves for who they were, fianally, because that was the first time in the history of RECORDED hip hop that this was the case.

    Talk that Trecherous Three stuff all you want; did you ever see the way those mutherfucka’s dressed! Spiked leather boots and all?

    Run DMC gave Hip Hop the freedom to be it’s self; which is what gave way to the “Golden Era”; that’s all I meant.

    Ausar

  43. i feel you but when u listen to a record u can’t see how anyone is dressed. Personally i could care less how a rapper is dressed.I wanna hear lyrics.

  44. Run-Dmc might even like Brock said be the root of the corniness going on in hip hop now.they did write license to ill for the beasties.Def Jam was like the Hip-Hop motown. they wanted to get that crossover guap.

  45. Forgive me, if this comes across as being off the topic, but as much as I have fond memories of the 90’s era of HipHop, I always felt hardcore HipHop lost INDIVIDUALISM in the 90’s, like in the 80’s all the hardcore acts had some form of their own identity from personality to behaviour to fashion and so on, cos hardcore just meant rapping your ass off over the hardest & rawest

  46. MERCILESZ,

    I was tempted to argue against your point on the grounds that Hip Hop is more than just music and, thus, something you experience in more ways than just hearing it. Run DMC was the first “rap group” on MTV and their visual presentation was as significant as anything else they brought to the “video generation”.

    However, then (by coincidence or not) I watched Krush Groove on cable today and I’m doing a 180; that movie was a piece of shit and may very well be the exact point where Hip Hop sold its soul.

    Ausar

  48. Mercilesz… you are crazy.

    That’s damn near blasphemous that you’re negating Run-DMC’s impact.

  49. negating no. You have it mistaken. I am, as we all are examining when did the commercial aspect of Hip-Hop arise that everyone on this site complains so much about. So far as I can tell it happened with Run-Dmc. If you don’t own any records pre Run-Dmc or haven’t heard of any original crews from the Bronx that put this thing into motion and who Run-Dmc were emulating then it may be hard for you to understand. Run-Dmc were the children of the Cold Crush ,Treacherous 3,Fantastic 5 and the like. If you ever heard tapes of their live performances and heard the complexity of their raps and their flows then you would be able to understand that those aforemtioned Bronx groups were the root of Hip-Hop and the Mc’s that everyone in ny emulated. Run-Dmc dumbed down the lyrical content extremely in order to make Hip-Hop appealing to a wider audience then just ny fans. I love Run-Dmc, but I know what came before and after them and UltraMagnetic had no problem saying the same thing I have been saying in Ego Trip. The impact that Run-Dmc had in Hip-Hop was more of an impact in the music business and less in the actual art of the music. I don’t think I can make it any more clear.

  50. MERCILESZ, are you also more or less indicating that the blueprint of the commercialized CLONES started with Run DMC??

  51. and blasphemous? I know he’s a reverend now but he’s not my god.lol um yeah Kev I think thats what I’m saying. Run-Dmc were commercialized clones of real Bronx Hip Hop. They used rock guitar and simple lyrics to appeal to MTV, They sold German sneakers to Americans by the boatload, And appeared in two horrible movies each with no real discernable plot and then turned white(the beastie boys), and managed to sell even more records on mtV with even simpler lyrical content. So yeah I think that’s what I’m saying.

  52. People wake up!!!! 2 turntables and a microphone and an mc come from the Bronx N.Y. No where else. everything after that is a copy. Hip-Hop comes from the Bronx. Breakbeat digging, scratching, Rapping, B-Boying, it all was there before 1980.People were cutting up 45 funk breaks and rock breaks before 1980. Run-Dmc was just the 1st time the majority of people my age outside N.Y saw Hip-Hop so I guess that’s why everyone is so enamoured with them.

  53. merc- run dmc had they own look. .1.Tell me who exactly did what they did b4 them?? who’d they sound like? no-one.2. sure no doubt they where influenced by the one’s b4, who wouldnt have been? Bronx/Hrlem has always been looked at as the source for style/music. you need to re-listen to the first album bro to hear why people really love run dmc n jam master jay(RIP). i think cats hated on dudes cos of their success early and raw fuckin energy on stage and on wax. i dont care or wanna hear who did the beats and they used rock guitars, whatever. They did. So what?. And did it better than the Beasties in my opinion. Or anyone else to be quite frank. king of rock is an amazin cut..hard as nails b-boy schitt with guitars. simple as dat. Two turns and a mic, like you said.

  54. They were the beastie boys. They wrote that 1st album. Beasties sold more than they ever did and to this day License to ill is def jams biggest selling record and the most lucrative record in the defjam catalogue.If you guys can’t understand what I’m saying about the original Mc’s from the Bronx then there is nothing I can say to change your mind. The message by the furious 5 has better and more complex lyrics than anything Run-Dmc ever made and their look has nothing to do with their music.Everyone from New York wore jeans and sneakers in the 1970’s that was just the dresscode of the city no matter what borough but I see now people and more concerned with image than lyrical substance so there really is nothing left to say.

  56. and should be are. But all i know is when I first listened to hip-hop the best singles never had videos. If the music was dope it was dope.

  57. BUY SOME ZULU BEATS TAPES FROM THE P BROTHERS!!!!!! learn where this music came from and why when it went back to it’s original form of sampling in 86 Run-Dmc couldn’t keep up and were basically forgotten about when the Juice Crew came along.

  58. MERCILESZ,

    I can’t argue against or for you at this point as I’m still mulling this over; I do think you made a few cogent points in our last exchange.

    But I gotta say this:

    Run DMC were the one and only Kings of this rap shit and they deserve an amount of respect from everyone. Before them, people thought that Bronx shit was a fad that would eventually die off. I admit they both helped and hurt Hip Hop, but they were students of the Bronx (and Harlem) MCs and managed to outshine all of them. They made the old timers deal with it whether they liked it or not, despite the fact that most of the old timers didn’t like it (including legends like Melle Mel and the Cold Crush who all talk bad about Run DMC till this very day).

    So I think Run and them are worthy of at least as much respect as the originators because they beat the originators at their own game (by your own admission, it was the same thing, but simplified).

    That being said, Run DMC did sell the fuck out and eventually fall the fuck off! …but they had no role models for the level of success they achieved and I, for one, forgive them.

    P.S. – I made special note to mention Harlem as well as the Bronx because the first borough to imitate the Bronx was Harlem, home of the very same Trecherous Three you were comparing Run DMC to a few days ago(I’m throwing that point in for historical accuracy; there may be some New Borns reading this!).

    Ausar

  59. mingkilla they weren’t always hated on cos of their success….actually Run DMC were hated on by their peers before they even blew up, like I said when they 1st did their show at The Fever, which was b4 they blew up, they got dismissed and dissed by their peers as well as from the 1st generation HipHop fans, which were for these reasons;

    1) They dressed down with their stage clothes
    2) Their style they were bringing as MC’s, from their simple lyrics, to their shouting and yelling on the mic
    3) Being from Queens didn’t help them at all

    But Run DMC would shrugg off that heat by saying “when we come back we’re gonna be stars”…and they were right…and if you speak to the 1st generation HipHop fans (from the 70’s as well as the one’s old enough to hang out in the clubs) they’ll confirm what I’m saying

    But MERCILESZ, whilst Run DMC were by no means lyricists, at the same time there were cats prior to them that weren’t lyricists either, such as Doug E Fresh, Kurtis Blow, Busy Bee etc….it’s just they made up for it in thier swagger & charisma

  60. Notice I didnt list Doug E fresh,Kurtis Blow or Busy Bee. None of them are contemporaries with cold crush,fantastic 5,treacherous 3, funky 4 plus one more, furious 5 and the like. they came later.

  63. oh yeah they didn’t outshine anybody either. I know the truth about this thing called rap. Wild Style shines brighter than Krush groove or tougher than leather.

  64. Pardon me for for calling Harlem a borough but when I think of Manhattan I think Harlem; apologies, you’re right. My point still stands though, Harlem was the first to copy the Bronx.

  67. But MERCILESZ, even within the groups such as cold crush,fantastic 5,treacherous 3, funky 4 plus one more, furious 5, not all the MC’s in those groups were lyricists either

  68. Kevin’s right!

    MERCILESZ, the memory tends to paint rosie pictures!

    For example, you suggested a Zulu Nation tape; Zulu had some of the worst MC’s of that era! Jazzy 5: “everybody cals me Chuckie Chuck, Chuckaluck, aluck , aluck, aluck”; WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT!

    You shittin on Run DMC; what about Zulu? (no disrespect th MC Globe, a true pioneer and an exception!). Pow Wow had style. Lisa Lee was alright, but other than G.L.O.B.E., most of their MC’s sucked!

    You’re simplifying your argument; even if everybidy else don’t know, let’s talk real talk here: there was plenty MC’s who got over on the crowd based on the novelty of Rap and the fact that most party goers were focused on the DJ at that time.

    You say Run DMC was simple, but so was Keith Cowbow and he’s arguably the very first MC to put it down!

  69. …by the way, pardon the typos; I definitely wouldn’t pass a drunk driving test at this moment!

  70. Ausar, Pow Wow was the most hilarious, like I’ve got this video tape from 1984, and this kid starts breaking in the park, and Pow Wow goes to the kid, “yo that’s the old style we used to do back in the dayz, it’s about this new style with Rap” and kicks these lyrics “Hippidy Hop Hippidy Hop Hippidy Hop, you don’t stop, DANCE TO THE BEAT DANCE TO THE BEAT DANCE”…and says to the kid “can you bust lyrics like that”…LMAO

  71. But Ausar, could you please enlighten me, as definative as you can, how Run DMC..erm as you put it…SOLD THE FUCK OUT???

  72. well u guys can continue this debate by yourselves because you aren’t talking about any of the groups i mentioned. I didn’t say Jazzy 5 and I didn’t say Cosmic Force. The only reason I brought up Zulu Beats was because of the kind of records that A. Islam was cutting up. He was cutting breaks from 45’s which is the basis of hip-hop.Once the original break oriented sound came back out in 86 Run-Dmc was now considered behind the times.

  73. Run DMC only ever proclaimed themselves the kings of rock.Never rap.

    Whether they sold out or not i`m sure a lot of people are thankful for them leading them to the other original forms of hip hop.

  74. 86 was great for Cold Getting Dumb that single is surely Timeless even when I play it today you see peoples ears spark up even chicks say who’s that rapping or who made that beat with the But 88 might have it on the album side ego trippin was Grand in 86 but it has nothing on the rest of the tracks on Critical Beatdown released in 88.So for the best single 86 Cold Getting Dumb but 88 has it with straight up full featured Albums. Peace….SenSimon

  75. merc- dont have to tell us about P BROTHERS dude they most respected here bro. Started breakin in 1984, grew up on bronx rap like others reading here im sure.

    Onto Run DMC,ok,so they helped write SOME of licence to ill- dope album. Brothers got paid, dont hate. Not cool now? well their contribution is most appreciated in hip hop. They set trends listen to any Black Rock n Ron cut or alike and listen to the style of rappin. There were rappers l8r that sounded like Run Dmc.
    Onto this notion of image you keep going on about when i first heard sucker mc’s i hadnt a clue what run dmc looked like i obviously just heard music thats it all and it sounded pretty much like nothing else id ever heard. wasnt til month or so l8r that i saw them in standard track suits made by Adidas posing on the cassette album cover id bought. My homeboys regardless say classic cut when you say sucker mc’s everybody starts rappin runs first few bars besides if you ever b-boyd youd know we used to rock hard to sucker mc’s. Another conclusive example, i still dont know what LEVI 167 looks like?LOL. but who cares?. Something fresh to swing to is a monster classic i dont see swagger cos i dont hallucinate i only hear. However i did make a comment about the wac leather tight-ass togs kool moe and rappers where suited in, And justafiably so. Oh, and moe dee cannot touch LL son.

  76. merc- dont have to tell us about P BROTHERS dude they most respected here bro. Started breakin in 1984, grew up on bronx rap like others reading here im sure.

    Onto Run DMC,ok,so they helped write SOME of licence to ill- dope album. Brothers got paid, dont hate. Not cool now? well their contribution is most appreciated in hip hop. They set trends listen to any Black Rock n Ron cut or alike and listen to the style of rappin. There were rappers l8r that sounded like Run Dmc.
    Onto this notion of image you keep going on about when i first heard sucker mc’s i hadnt a clue what run dmc looked like i obviously just heard music thats it all and it sounded pretty much like nothing else id ever heard. wasnt til month or so l8r that i saw them in standard track suits made by Adidas posing on the cassette album cover id bought. My homeboys regardless say classic cut when you say sucker mc’s everybody starts rappin runs first few bars besides if you ever b-boyd youd know we used to rock hard to sucker mc’s. Another conclusive example, i still dont know what LEVI 167 looks like?LOL. but who cares?. Something fresh to swing to is a monster classic i dont see swagger cos i dont hallucinate i only hear. However i did make a comment about the wac leather tight-ass togs kool moe and rappers where suited in, And justafiably so. Oh, and moe dee cannot touch LL son.

  77. Just to get back to the topic again 86 I feel did perfect Rap into a 12inch single package with the likes of “Cold Getting Dumb” Just-ice “Check out my Melody” Eric B n Rakim “Ego Trippin” Ultra “Everlasting Bass” Rodney O n Joe Cooley But 88 perfected it for sure into the full package Albums JVC’s “Doin Damage” Big Daddy Kanes “Long live the Kane” Kool G Rap and DJ Polo’s “Road to the Riches” Steady B’s 2nd album “let the Hustlers play” Dj muggs 1st effort with the 7A3 “Coolin in Cali” Ultramagnetics ” Critical Beatdown” yEah 88 was one of the biggest years for Classic Hip Hop for Sure SenSimon……
    oh yeah for anyone that cares on my last comment to this post I left out a couple of words it should read like this…….”who made that beat with the bells in it” Peace.

  78. MERCILESZ, you mentioned groups like cold crush, treacherous 3, funky 4 plus 1 more, fantastic 5, etc…in comparison to Run DMC, but that’s the point I was making earlier, not all the MC’s in those groups were lyricists or even hard complicated rhyme schemes

  79. @ mingkilla: yeah you’re right.
    someting is fresh to swing to is awesome.
    dopedope. someone got a clue about levi?
    heard he was around bdp. did he ever made
    another record. whuteva. guys your debate
    is well interesting. i feel like i gotta dig deeper
    in rap history.like krs : you must learn.
    back to the oldschool.peace.

  80. swordfish- i think LEVI 167 was in a crew with Blastmaster KRS called 12:41. listen to electro 11 for a cut called ‘success’.

    cold crush had flavor but never thought any emcee pre-87 was particularly amazing. Rakim, LL, king sun, G Rap, krs came along and set the standards imo. Some may argue dat T LA ROCK was the man though b4 the aforementioned.

  84. mingkilla, just wondering is that assessment of MC’s prior 87, based on records you heard or those live tapes, which was just breakbeats and rhymes

  85. Also as for LL, the foundation of his whole style came from T La Rock

  86. Imma draw hate, but…

    mingkilla, YOU ARE BUGGIN!

    So Mo Dee gets no credit?

    So Grandmaster Caz gets no credit?

    So Melle Mel get’s no credit?

    I love T La Rock, but don’t forget that Special K wrote It’s Yours, not T La Rock and that’s T’s best song!

    How you gonna front oneveryone before ’87?

    And King Sun? peace to the God he’s nice, but to brush off Kool Mo, Caz and Melle Mel inthe name of King Sun is straight foolishness. I can’t imagine that even King Sun would agree with that.

  87. Ausar, maybe because T La Rock is a good friend of mine I have an instight to a few things;

    1. ‘It’s Yours’ was written by both Special K & T La Rock, cos it was originally meant to be Special K’s record, but T La Rock replaced him so changes and and alterations to verses were made
    2. ‘It’s Yours’ was NEVER T La Rock’s best record as far as I’m concerned…I always felt Lyrical King, Breaking Bells, and others records (some of which were unreleased) were better

  88. Kevin,

    Can we respectfully agree to disagree? I like Lyrical King and Breaking Bells (Breakdown was also a personal favorite), but I LOVE It’s Yours; keep in mind these are just opinions.

    Nevertheless, I still can’t feel homey for disregarding any MC prior to 1987; that’s an opinion too, but I’m going to the grave with Melle mel in my top 5 cause I ain’t heard NO ONE who could outdo him since. Moe Dee’s up in the ranks also. So if I gotta take a stand on that then so be it.

  89. Not To Get Off Topic
    Man…… listen, its like this, if you were from the TRI-STATE it was 98.7Kiss/107.5BLS from 83-92…thats the era (stations) right here!!

    PHILLY had a show you could pick up heading down
    95 South that was tight….BALTIMORE had a AM Station which had MR.MAGIC on its weeknight rotation in 1987…… And my man who was born in LA would tell me about KDAY(AM) which apparently played RAP MUSIC 24-7!!! all you needed was a BOX
    and some fresh TAPES!!! and press RECORD.If you couldnt afford to buy the music ..you could at best…. just LISTEN.

    And if that wasnt enough, most of the rappers from
    this time period repped on the STAGE all over the
    country and the world and are somehow DISSED by
    people claiming to be EXPERTS!!!!!and couldnt tell
    you the name of the first host of RAP CITY!!!

  90. Auser I hear where your coming from and FORGIVE ME if I APPEARED to be condisneding, I was just laying down my view like you did as well insighting you on a little inaccuracy regarding who wrote It’s Yours…However I do feel it’s unfair judge the capabilities, credentials and legacies of the MC’s prior to 1987 as opposed to those the MC’s that came after them when these factors should taken into account;

    1) Most of credited lyricists of that time only made a handful of singles/records, therefore their total amount of records they made would equivalent to just one full album
    2) Unlike 1987 and later on where your rep & body of work is built from the records & you make, in the HipHop scene back in those dayz (pre-1987) the reps & body of work were built from the live jams at HipHop spots/clubs, and the tapes from those jams
    3) They would dumb down the lyrical level when making the records to make them more listenable cos alot them didn’t know how to make records and write songs properly at all cos they were too used to performing live

    Which is why I always advice people to research and listen to the live tapes of the 1st generation MC’s (pre-1987) to truely know the full extent of their body of work….

  91. Hey yo Kevin I was reading your discussion and when I saw this “T La Rock is a good friend of mine ” I just couldn’t believe it maybe because I’m so far away in OZ but word! do you see him anymore? can you ask him to do another album with mantronix and a Roland TR 808 I’ll lend you my Drum Machine if you want Narh har arh I realize that might be a bit to much to ask but seriously I just discovered another one of his tacks that I didn’t know exsisted he’s droppin fresh lyrics to a piano loop that Skinny Boys use on their “can’t get enough album”….. T La Rock – “You Got The Time” is the name it’s vintage stuff an Awesome track pre Warpath album for sure only problem is I found it on a compilation cd called….. Seventy Minutes Of Madness – Old School Flava Vol 2 my dilemma is it only plays half the track in the mix I need the full version so Kevin can you or anyone else advise me where to get this rare golden Tune????
    if you or anyone needs to hear it this is where I found the snippet at

    http://www.juno.co.uk/products/247075-01.htm

    sorry to jump of the topic guys but any news on this track would be much appreiated peace SenSimon

  92. I’m wit you Kev; very few MC’s prior to the late 1980’s ever got the opportunity to make an album so we will never really know what they were capable of.

    I’ve also been thinkin’ about what you said about alot of the original groups having simple lyrics and that’s definitely true, and I don’t have a problem with it. You can’t feed a baby steak! We were all relatively new to Hip Hop at that stage and I’m glad it developed the way it did. Something MERCILESZ needs to keep in mind is that the groups he’s talking about, like the Trecherous Three and the Cold Crush, didn’t come along until a little bit later in the Old School era and, really, most MCs, EXCEPT Melle Mel, were pretty simple in the begining. The Trecherous Three and the Cold Crush were exceptions and they came after the Keith Cowboys, Busy B’s, Coke La Rocs and so on. So Hip Hop has experienced development over the years.

  93. Also Kevin,

    I think I love It’s Yours so much because of the way T La Rock made outlined the very same situation we’re talking about so clearly:

    “Comon talk deserves to walk,
    the situation’s change
    Everything said from now on
    has to be pre-arranged…”

    Classic; the changing of the guard right there.

  94. Actually Ausar, I never actually said ALOT of the original groups had simple lyrics or weren’t lyricists, it’s just that when the MC was just a sidekick to the DJ there weren’t lyricists which was pre-1987, which the MC had it’s own spotlight that was when the lyricist was born with Melle Mel being one of the first…it’s just there was a balance between the lyricists and the party rocking MC EVEN within the actual groups, it’s just when it came to the party dancing beats, those lyricists just turned the lyricism off and relied on entertaining the crowd…but in addition to the lyricists you mentioned Ausar, I’ll add some more such as T La Rock (who was even an MC before Special K), Special K, Tito, Rodney Cee, Sliver Fox (who G. Rap credits his style from)

  95. I keep hearing about this Silver Fox dude, but have never heard any of his tapes. Did he have any?

  96. I thought given the debate on Run DMC, it would be a nice place to quote from Kool Mo Dee’s book ‘There’s A God On The Mic’ (pp. 111-112).

    “If you think I missed the boat on Guru, and didn’t respect Snoop lyrically, multiply that by ten and then you know how I felt about Run. It was bordering on pure HATE! In 1983 the lyrical God Kings, Melle Mel, Grandmaster Caz, and Kool Mo Dee were all at poetic pinnacles. Run DMC , and Run in particular, came along with the arrogance and pomposity of a rhyme supremacist. What was crazy to us at the time was he was about the least lyrical emcee outside of a party emcee that we had ever heard. It just didn’t make sense.

    “What also didn’t make sense was fans loved him. It was like he simplistically prophesised greatness and it came. By 1986, Run DMC was the benchmark for everything in Hip Hop. This ebgan the tend in Hip Hop where emcees started becoming musically gimmicky. We started trying to figure out how to make records that would get radio airplay. Ironically, Run started his string of successes by being as raw and ungimmicky as possible. Run is a series of dichotimies. He was a dope emcee, but he wasn’t lyrical. He said he was hardcore Hip Hop, but he mixed it with rock music. He made the best records with the worst rhymes.

    “Run is the only emcee outside of LL and Tupac who could say a simple, juvenile rhyme and make you feel like it was Shakespeare. On top of that, his energy while he rhymed was like an explosion. Run was the opposite of many emcees of the time. Most emcees tried to be lyrical on records to rock the audience, and then couldn’t bring it across live. Run seemed to have figured out that lyrics can get in the way in a live performance. The audience wants to participate with the emcee in a concert.

  98. yeah i cant front kevin my assessment was based on studio records. i consider myself old school but am still payin dues by learnin the facts..i didnt realise people thought LL Cool J kinda bit T LA Rock didnt really cross my mind anyway. Not til your made aware and have a closer listen can you make connections. T LA ROCK lyrical king is fuckin dope by the way..what happened to DJ louie lou??

  99. b brock- yeah i appreciate the quotes above from kool mo dee’s book..i need to cop that.

  101. opps just correct an error;

    Actually Ausar, I never actually said ALOT of the original groups had simple lyrics or weren’t lyricists, it’s just that when the MC was just a sidekick to the DJ there weren’t lyricists which was PRE-1977, which the MC had it’s own spotlight that was when the lyricist was born with Melle Mel being one of the first…it’s just there was a balance between the lyricists and the party rocking MC EVEN within the actual groups, it’s just when it came to the party dancing beats, those lyricists just turned the lyricism off and relied on entertaining the crowd…but in addition to the lyricists you mentioned Ausar, I’ll add some more such as T La Rock (who was even an MC before Special K), Special K, Tito, Rodney Cee, Sliver Fox (who G. Rap credits his style from)

  102. Yo Kevin,

    Wow, T La Rock was rhymin’ before Special K?!

    Now that I didn’t know!

    Rodney Cee was dope too; a very lyrical MC from the early days.

    Tito was nice too; The Fearless Four was actually my favorite group for a long time. I think people started sleepin’ on the Fearless cause they were still hot even as late as ’85 when they did “Private Lessons” and Tito and Peso had “She’s Wild”.

    The reason I used the term “alot” is becuase there weren’t that many mcs back then anyway so a few out of a larger few is still alot percentage wise (if that makes any sense to you); but I didn’t mean to misquote you.

    One.

  103. Mercilesz… with all due respect, if Run-DMC were in fact merely a commercial group (which is what you’re basically saying)… then they were easily the best, most trendsetting, most respected “commercial” act to ever exist in hip-hop. To me, Run-DMC represented what most artists did on the block but wouldn’t do on stage or on record.

    In fact, don’t you think it’s more “commercial” to divert from your usual routine to make records that were more “accessible”? Because if so, isn’t that basically what many of the earlier acts did? None of them were rapping over music being played by a band and dressing in crazy-ass outfits on the street… correct?

    And that’s not to negate the earlier groups, but I think it’s a little easy to take what Run-DMC did and reduce it to being a “commercial” act. Their “commercialism” made a LOT of shit possible for hip-hop that many people weren’t even considering beforehand.

  104. DanjaMania i know Mercilesz is not that dumb, he’s just looking to keep convo going. No way was Run-DMC a commercial group. Run-Dmc had hits, and they knew how too take the love they were getting because of the Beastie Boys and flip it, and become bigger than the BBoys. Truth be told every nation under the sun knew about them, what’s bad about that.

  105. Ausar, don’t forget those local MC’s, that had skillz but didn’t have the opportunity to blow and become big names…I always felt Sha Rock was nice with her lyrics too…also DLB was nice too

    Yeah, T La Rock started rhyming around the 70’s (like 76) around the local spots in the Bronx for little while, then got together with a group called Undefeated 4 (still pre-Treacherous 3), and in that group was 2 DJ/MC’s and 2 DJ’s, were together for like 5 years or so, then eventuallu broke up

  106. “And King Sun? peace to the God he’s nice, but to brush off Kool Mo, Caz and Melle Mel inthe name of King Sun is straight foolishness. I can’t imagine that even King Sun would agree with that.”

    D-Moet was always underrated..but if you cant understand why King Sun is so revered here well what can i say.

  107. If MC POET and MIKEY D battled back in the day, on or off record who’d win??.

  109. mingkilla,

    I got nothin but love for King Sun; I personally seen him take out a whole party full of MC’s by his damn self back in the early 90’s.

    I still don’t put him on a plane with Grandmaster Caz, Kool Moe Dee, or Melle Mel; and that’s my only point.

    If you’re gonna tell me that King Sun is better than Grandmaster Caz, Kool Moe Dee, and Melle Mel, then speak on it! State your case.

  110. Ausar, as you’ve personally seen King Sun battle, could you please enlighten me, on any other MC’s you’ve seen battle??

    Also, I’ve got the New Music Seminar 1987 battle, which included King Sun battling Melle Mel and Grandmaster Caz, and honestly even though Mel’s flow & delivery was indeed dated, but there were 3 verses Melle Mel kicked rhyme-4-rhyme, lyric-4-lyric, line-4-line, verse-4-verse was soo ill that:

    1) I COULDN’T OVER WHAT MEL WAS SAYING
    2) They were the best damn verse in the entire Seminar
    3) Even today they still kick ass

  111. Just to focus on King sun for the moment; this was down south somewhere around at a party somewhere around Hampton U. It was pretty much New York and New Jesrey in the house that night; Kid Capri was the DJ. I remeber King Sun holdin it down against a bunch a cats, but nobody with a name that you would know. However, the fact that you wouldn’t know them means nothing to me cause it takes alota gual for ANY MC to walk into a party an take all comers; which is exactly what Sun did!

  112. …and I ain’t mad at mingkilla, but I’m stuck on the point that you can’t just disregard any MC before 1987; regardless of how much I respect King Sun and many of the other great MC’s he’s sighted.

  113. Cool, but don’t keep a man waiting on, those other cats you witnessed

  114. mickey d vs. mc poet? wouldve ben a great battle..listening in retrospect i think Poet may just have the edge..kid was a beast on record anyway

  115. Ohh Ausar, King Sun even stated at the Zulu Nation Anniversary, that he tried to battle Kool Moe Dee LIVE, and he said and I quote “I tried to battle Kool Moe Dee, VERY BIG MISTAKE, YOU TRY AND BATTLE KOOL MOE DEE LIVE, YOU’LL LOOK STUPID”

  116. I seen LL take this kid out at Green Acres Mall. I’m pretty sure he used the same rhyme from the EPMD record, but this was before that record came out.

    I think the kid thought LL was havin’ it because it was still during those Walking With A Panther days, right before Mama Said Knock You Out came out.

    LL embarrased the poor youngsta; I gotta admit that!

    Other than that there aint too many well known MC’s I’ve seen battle, just underground cats like C-Rayz Walls.

    I seen alot of performances and a few ill situations, but not neccessarily anymore battles.

    Ausar

  117. “I seen LL take this kid out at Green Acres Mall. I’m pretty sure he used the same rhyme from the EPMD record, but this was before that record came out.”

    I’d say that either means that the record had already been recorded and he was recalling his rhymes from the track, or, when he was writing his lyrics for the record, he remembered some of the lyrics that he used in this encounter. It’s a possibility that he had written them long before the record or the battle. He used a line from an 85 freestyle on “Mr. Goodbar”, so this might be possible.

  118. Well Ausar, outta few well known MC’s, besides LL & King Sun, were there any others outta those few that you saw battle??

  120. Danja speaking about makin alot of things possible by being commercial makes very little sense to me. It’s just that you guys are huge Run-Dmc fans. Bad Boy made rap more accessible than any one act out now but should i praise them?

  121. nah merc, you should praise Run an em’ those who came before. made it possible for men like sean combs to make loot. Run DMC were cross-over but eschewed b-boy to the fullest imo. I dont see that at all over at Bad Boy, so no dont praise those fools.

  122. mingkilla, I think what MERCILESZ is saying is, Run DMC’s crossing over or branching out to the Rock genre & audience made HipHop accessible, replace the word ‘Rock’ with ‘R’n’b’ and you’ll find that Badboy did the same thing

  125. Mr. Ming I think u r beginning to take me way too seriously.” My name is Mercilesz no relation to ming, I come out at night with the freaks and wolfmen”. It seems like u even changed your first name to mingkilla to make me take offense or even be frightened. Can’t happen. I don’t take personal offense at anything that anyone says on this site. I know everything is a matter of opinion. We are lucky enough to even have a site like this where people who actually know the music can discuss it. My “Ha Haa” is not laughter. It is the catch phrase of my new favorite rapper Hip Hop Harry who I find to be hilarious. For future reference I think you should take what everyone types on here very lightly because it is only opinion and everyone has one just like qwerty on a keyboard.

  126. SET RULE u forgot WNWK which use to be WHBI and housed the Supreme Team. Thats before my time though I knew it as WNWK with the Awesome 2.
    Oh yeah Chris Thomas with his dumb ass one arm dance.

  127. what da hoe r you talkin about man..u gettin your wires crossed folk..i couldnt give two-hoots, bout mr.ming ..MING’S a KILLA Chinese take-out round my way and i love chinese food, sorry for the apparent coincidence obviously..i aint here to thug-it out with you in public, joe. so “ha haa. exactly” sounds like you bein a joker or cryin for some attention stop being a prick blud!

  130. 100%?..yeah really, whatever. consecutive comments you cant say in one must be catchin some feelings ya self kido.

  133. I been out of town for a minute but all I can say on my return is…

    Y’all dudes need a hug.

  135. mingkilla, I think what MERCILESZ, found funny about my post, was simply the way I drew the parallel’s of Run DMC and Bad Boy making HipHop more accessible..hence the way I put it across

  136. Damn, I loved those mid to late eighties, before hip-hop went gangster. The band of choice for me was Mantronix, and “King of the Beats” from ’88 remains one of my all time favorites.

  137. Ausar, where and how have you been??

    By the way, list the best solo MC’s you seen live at a HipHop concert??

  138. peace if any one has on cd or tape a good copy of all sir ibu and divine force songs i can use a copy . if tyou have sir ibuu and kane freestyling on wbls in1989 . and g rap and kane freeestyle in 1988 and kane this is for your all concern please let me know . The fee is no problem

  140. 1 – I would love to record with Curtis Mantronix again.
    Problem – Mantronix has separated himself from Hip Hop.
    How ever, I will be recording with another friend of mine, Quincy QD3 Jones. if you like d Mantronix you will love QD3.

    “You got the time” was a 12inch single released on fresh records back in the 80s. Very hard to find.
    There will be a T la Rock Greatest hits CD.

    DJ Louie Lou is putting out mix CDs.

    PS,
    Special K is my younger brother, I introduced him to Hip Hop.

    Ive been a part of Hip Hop since its birth.
    This will all be covered in my movie.

    myspace.com/tlarock1

  141. I remember when I first heard RUN DMC’s ‘”Raising Hell” in 1986. I kept staring in awe and disbelief at my record player. It was a revelation.

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